Curse

reaper with no name · Jan 03, 2010, 12:47 PM // 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

You must think that they have made such HUGE billions of dollars from GWEN that they can just coast on it forever and ever. That is not the view that Regina presented to their customers, but of course your assumption would support your point that ANet is ALWAYS filthy rich and every content update from them has to be free.

Because of the fact that they have no new release since Aug 2007 and it would take about another year for GW2 to be released, they need to draw revenue to sustain themselves + hire my development staff to provide us with much needed GW1 content update and work on GW2 at the same time.

If they dont support subscription fees, and customers dont want them to provide micro transaction, and customers want them to provide free content update every 4-6 months? How are they going to achieve that without requesting for more money from NCSoft who has shown that they would rather invest in Aion which is subscription based?

Obviously, they can survive on it at least until GW2 is released, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion, because they would have pulled the plug. Unless, of course, there is more to this than just money, and they're also trying to keep us interested for when GW2 hits? Have you ever considered that?

Who says NCSoft is more willing to invest in Aion? Stop assuming that it is such a huge cash cow. It just started. It'll be at least a year before we know whether or not it is a flop or a hit.

And stop assuming you know how much money Anet has or needs to keep GW running. For all we know, they might already have enough in the bank from sales to keep it going for 5 more years. We have no freaking clue. All we know is, this game succeeded where so many others failed, and that the primary difference between it and those others was it's business model.

Even if you were correct that micro-transactions were going to kill the game (you aren't), that doesn't change the fact that going to subscriptions would kill it even faster, and destroy any hope GW2 has of succeeding.

NoKey · Jan 03, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkknightkain

/unsigned

I'd much rather to have Micro-transactions than Subscription-fees, GW1 and GW2.

The difference is obvious
- Micro-transactions - you can pick and choose what you want to buy/use, and simply skip everything else what you are not interested.
- Subscription-fees - you are stuck paying for everything whether you wanted/going to use them or not.

Yes you have a choice to pay for what you want with Micro Trans, but alot of games with this method of income has a tendency to make the game itself really unbalanced and forces players to buy from shop in order to play properly or even level up to keep up with others.

There are both pros and cons in Subs and Micros but it really comes down to whether or not it is right for the game and target audience.

This topic is an ongoing debate as we're all in different categories of a gamer with different views as to what a satisfying game is.

Daesu · Jan 03, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinterSnowblind

Again, you're basing this completely on assumption. How do you know they'd rather invest in Aion? Because, it was released three months ago, as opposed to a game that's nearly 5 years old?

Because GW1 has been around far longer than Aion and it has always been a trade off decision for them either to invest more money and resources into updates for GW1 or to create a new subscription based game like Aion.

History has shown that NCSoft decided to go with Aion instead of pouring the resources into more frequent GW1 content updates that GW customers have been asking for. Obviously NCSoft must have thought that creating Aion, as a subscription game, is a more worthwhile investment.

As far as I know, games from NCSoft are all subscription based except for GW, so I can conclude that NCSoft games business model are mostly subscription based.

Daesu · Jan 03, 2010, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Obviously, they can survive on it at least until GW2 is released, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion, because they would have pulled the plug. Unless, of course, there is more to this than just money, and they're also trying to keep us interested for when GW2 hits? Have you ever considered that?

And that is where your ASSUMPTION differs from Regina's statements.

Quote:

Who says NCSoft is more willing to invest in Aion? Stop assuming that it is such a huge cash cow. It just started. It'll be at least a year before we know whether or not it is a flop or a hit.

Past history already provided proof that they have decided to create subscription based Aion rather than hiring more staff for GW1 content updates.

NCSoft could have dropped Aion, and provided ANet the extra money to hire more development staff instead for the FREE content update every 4-6 months that you guys are asking for. So why didn't they do that?

And if they are so unlimited wealthy from GWEN sales back in 2007 as you seem to indicate, then why dont they just expand ANet's development staff so that we can all enjoy fresh content update every 4-6 months in GW1, instead of having players leave the game due to the lack of fresh content, and yet have GW2 ready by next year all at the same time? Don't they want to keep us around until GW2 is ready?

Schala · Jan 05, 2010, 02:38 PM // 14:38

Hi everyone! I just joined ^_^

I decided to start by simply just posting in a decent topic. Hope you don't mind the rush in just diving in and posting. So here I go.

ArenaNet developed guild wars, NCSOFT published the game. This is important to remember because I remember ArenaNet claiming they were not working on new content because their own internals prevented them from doing so.

If some of you recall, I'm sure you remember that ArenaNet wanted to make content that could go beyond the level 20 range, but stated that they were in too deep to make the content they wanted as pushing beyond the level 20 system would actually break the game itself.

We shouldn't pick on Korean-Based NCSOFT simply because they published ArenaNet's game. It would be the same as picking on Electronic Arts for Publishing Square-Enix's game in the 90s before they built their Honolulu branch office.

The problem with hiring fresh staff is that no matter how good they are, they will have to undergo training to keep the art and style of guild wars consistent. Such training takes six to twelve months on average. What ArenaNet saw was a system that in the short term was a success but in the long term would eventually crumble into failure, so they stopped making new content and started working on a new game.

I believed this was the right thing to do.

As for Subscription Fees vs Non-Subscription Fees.

I've played many MMOs and for a long time. I can tell you that subscription fees do not matter in the Quality of a game outside of the population itself. In Lineage 2 there were more bots than one could imagine. Everquest had its arguments between EQ1 and EQ2 players. Phantasy Star Online and the game which followed it, Phantasy Star Universe had extremely poor support and they are P2P games...In fact currently in updates they are a full year behind the Japanese. Final Fantasy XI also has its share of problems..Be it P2P or F2P does not change the internals of a game outside of a user paying money to enter a server.

I can quote Risk Your Life, Eve Online, Ragnarok Online and City of Heroes/City of Villains and even Tabula Rasa and Ultima Online...All of those games with their fees had their own internal problems and their quality was good at first because it was something new but over time it just died out.

Seems like these games offer something eye popping for the first three to six months and then they start to die out...Usually one has to wait until the first expansion of a game..

What I loved about Guild Wars was the fact that when Guild Wars Prophecies was released, it was a Full Game from beginning to end. I loved that more than the F2P system. Each time a campaign was released, it was full.

In short you could play through the game without having to buy an expansion to continue the basic story in each campaign. EoTN added its own story altogether and closed some loose ends, but Prophecies, Faction and Nightfall were complete games. I hated having to buy multiple expansions to other games in order to finish one story...its like paying $150 - $300 for a near-neverending story + fees and such a system just didn't work for me...

..So I give ArenaNet credit for being able to play completely through a campaign upon release and hope they continue doing that.

QueenofDeath · Jan 05, 2010, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by here to troll

I know, I know, the point of guild wars is to have a subscription fee-less(<--is that correct, lol) based model. But think about it, the average price for a subscription fee is about $12-$15. Now, how many people go to the movies. At least where I live it is about 10 bucks for a ticket and i might buy popcorn. Thats around 1 and a half hours to 2 hours of entertainment. Maybe longer if you see 2012 which is around 2 and a half hours (i think).

The fact is, it is easy to "get your monies worth" and i would rather support anet through a subscription fee than micro transactions. Just my $0.02.

Unlike most fools who part with their money so easily I don't goto the movies and waste $10-$20 watching the crappy movies they make today (Avatar anyone?) I wait until they are .99 cents at my local video store or even smarter method wait until they come on the movie channels of cable and/or direct tv which I already pay for. Then I can copy them in the comfort of my home at no added extra cost.

Paying to play a silly game online is foolish and a waste of money. With $15 a month I can buy many games a year and they will be MINE all MINE and give me YEARS of entertainment as opposed to a few hours a month. I don't have to play them everyday to get my moneys worth either or get value from them as they are there ready to play when I'm ready at no extra charge.

I've never understood the consumer mind that buys a game and then continues to pay $15 a month to continue to play it. lol That is the laugh of a lifetime.

The thing about GW though is you can bet your bottom dollar that if they had had a monthly fee like the others it wouldn't have sold 6 million copies and wouldn't have much of a population of online players either. It just isn't that great for a mmorpg type game. Not enough content, no character or loot evolving or growth either. It's the romper room mmorpg of online gaming at best since there is no monthly fee. It gets the majority of 8 year olds and pre teens of all of them as you can see by the forums and ingame player base attitudes and comments.

WinterSnowblind · Jan 05, 2010, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoKey

Yes you have a choice to pay for what you want with Micro Trans, but alot of games with this method of income has a tendency to make the game itself really unbalanced and forces players to buy from shop in order to play properly or even level up to keep up with others.

There are both pros and cons in Subs and Micros but it really comes down to whether or not it is right for the game and target audience.

This topic is an ongoing debate as we're all in different categories of a gamer with different views as to what a satisfying game is.

Not true. Again, you're focusing on the Korean model for micro-transactions. But there's no reason they couldn't simply add things like mini-expansions to GW2, that add new areas and quests with new weapons and armour to obtain. It doesn't put you at a disadvantage for not buying it, you don't need to buy it right away, but it has worthwhile content, if/when you do want it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

NCSoft could have dropped Aion, and provided ANet the extra money to hire more development staff instead for the FREE content update every 4-6 months that you guys are asking for. So why didn't they do that?

Once again, you're completely failing to realise that Aion has been running for a very short period. You cannot begin to assume that NCSoft have chosen to focus on that game more. While they have done so far, we're comparing a game less than three months old, to a game more than 5 years old. They're obviously going to support the newer game more, just as they did with Tabula Rasa. Will this be the case when GW2 launches? Who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And if they are so unlimited wealthy from GWEN sales back in 2007 as you seem to indicate, then why dont they just expand ANet's development staff so that we can all enjoy fresh content update every 4-6 months in GW1, instead of having players leave the game due to the lack of fresh content, and yet have GW2 ready by next year all at the same time? Don't they want to keep us around until GW2 is ready?

I'm not sure you understand how a business like this works at all. It was Anet's choice to scrap development on the expansions to focus all their efforts into GW2. GW is done now, and again, while even I might question why they decided to cap things with a half hearted expansion rather than a final campaign, this was their choice.

But I also think you're greatly underestimating the appeal of GW2. If they keep releasing new boat loads of new content for the first GW, right up until the release of GW then a lot of people are going to grow tired of it. People aren't just going to lose interest and not care about the sequel, if anything it's going to make them want to play it more.

Look at something like Starcraft, for example. Do you think people don't care about SCII because it's been so long since the first game? What about Diablo III? Your arguments here are very flawed, based on a lot of assumption, ignorance.. and I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue. Is it that you think GW2 is going to be a failure?

MithranArkanere · Jan 05, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

If I want to play GW, anytime, I just need Internet connection and a computer.

If there were fees, I would have to pay while I play, and stop paying when I'm going to leave the game for a while.
And in some games that means losing the characters too.

So, no, thanks. I'll keep my pay-once.

Daesu · Jan 06, 2010, 01:02 AM // 01:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by WinterSnowblind

Once again, you're completely failing to realise that Aion has been running for a very short period. You cannot begin to assume that NCSoft have chosen to focus on that game more. While they have done so far, we're comparing a game less than three months old, to a game more than 5 years old. They're obviously going to support the newer game more, just as they did with Tabula Rasa. Will this be the case when GW2 launches? Who knows.

And once again you have failed to realize that GW1 has been around far longer than Aion has. Therefore, you have repeatedly failed to understand that when NCSoft decided to create a brand NEW game known as Aion, they could have used the resources for GW1 updates but have chosen not to.

Quote:

I'm not sure you understand how a business like this works at all. It was Anet's choice to scrap development on the expansions to focus all their efforts into GW2. GW is done now, and again, while even I might question why they decided to cap things with a half hearted expansion rather than a final campaign, this was their choice.

Wrong again. It has always been NCSoft that owns the purse strings, not ANet. ANet is a wholely owned subsidiary of NCSoft if you know what that means.

Quote:

But I also think you're greatly underestimating the appeal of GW2. If they keep releasing new boat loads of new content for the first GW, right up until the release of GW then a lot of people are going to grow tired of it. People aren't just going to lose interest and not care about the sequel, if anything it's going to make them want to play it more.

So you are saying the more content update they provide for GW1 the more people would grow tired of the game? Then they should not provide any update, so people would stick around longer in GW1? Sure....

Sir Tom Hunter · Jan 06, 2010, 01:21 AM // 01:21

bhavv is 110% correct on every account. Anet makes plenty of money off the GW franchise. If you look at games who do use the monthly fees, alot of them still have update problems and tipically are spammed by hackers and bots. Mind you that could happen to any popular game, the pay per month games do not have any commentment to an account, so if they are banned their outt 10 bucks, while they made 100 or so from selling the items and gold they farmed. With Guild Wars, they must purchase an account for 40 or more with the same if not a lessor result. Not very productive. For that reason alone I am against the pay per month idea.

They are making a profit, that is not the problem. It takes time to create content, they can't be working on both games at the same time.

Cacheelma · Jan 06, 2010, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schala

As for Subscription Fees vs Non-Subscription Fees.

I've played many MMOs and for a long time. I can tell you that subscription fees do not matter in the Quality of a game outside of the population itself. In Lineage 2 there were more bots than one could imagine. Everquest had its arguments between EQ1 and EQ2 players. Phantasy Star Online and the game which followed it, Phantasy Star Universe had extremely poor support and they are P2P games...In fact currently in updates they are a full year behind the Japanese. Final Fantasy XI also has its share of problems..Be it P2P or F2P does not change the internals of a game outside of a user paying money to enter a server.

I can quote Risk Your Life, Eve Online, Ragnarok Online and City of Heroes/City of Villains and even Tabula Rasa and Ultima Online...All of those games with their fees had their own internal problems and their quality was good at first because it was something new but over time it just died out.

Seems like these games offer something eye popping for the first three to six months and then they start to die out...Usually one has to wait until the first expansion of a game..

What I loved about Guild Wars was the fact that when Guild Wars Prophecies was released, it was a Full Game from beginning to end. I loved that more than the F2P system. Each time a campaign was released, it was full.

In short you could play through the game without having to buy an expansion to continue the basic story in each campaign. EoTN added its own story altogether and closed some loose ends, but Prophecies, Faction and Nightfall were complete games. I hated having to buy multiple expansions to other games in order to finish one story...its like paying $150 - $300 for a near-neverending story + fees and such a system just didn't work for me...

..So I give ArenaNet credit for being able to play completely through a campaign upon release and hope they continue doing that.

I like how you picked only some inferior/dead p2p games to compare with GW.

Either you did it to make your point or because GW is on the same level of quality as those games is beyond me.

IlikeGW · Jan 06, 2010, 03:04 AM // 03:04

All a sub fee would get you would be more mandatory grind in the game (have to keep people playing to pay those subs) and maybe 5 fresh GM's. Woo?

reaper with no name · Jan 06, 2010, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And that is where your ASSUMPTION differs from Regina's statements.

Past history already provided proof that they have decided to create subscription based Aion rather than hiring more staff for GW1 content updates.

NCSoft could have dropped Aion, and provided ANet the extra money to hire more development staff instead for the FREE content update every 4-6 months that you guys are asking for. So why didn't they do that?

And if they are so unlimited wealthy from GWEN sales back in 2007 as you seem to indicate, then why dont they just expand ANet's development staff so that we can all enjoy fresh content update every 4-6 months in GW1, instead of having players leave the game due to the lack of fresh content, and yet have GW2 ready by next year all at the same time? Don't they want to keep us around until GW2 is ready?

Where are you getting this idea that NCSoft chose to take money away from GW and put it towards Aion? There's no indication of this. If anything, they took money that wasn't being used by anyone and made a new game with it.

Why would you hire more people to update a game that is about to have a sequel come out? A game that is nearing the end of it's lifespan, no less? And before you mention it, no, the addition of more support personnel would not significantly increase the game's longevity. And even if it could, that would not mean it would be worth the cost.

Seriously, all I'm hearing from you is "NCSoft made Aion, a subscription-based game! Clearly, free-to-play games must suck then!".

Have you ever heard the phrase "Don't put all your eggs in one basket"?

By your line of logic you could say "Nintendo made a Zelda game, instead of a Mario game. Clearly, Mario games must suck!".

Or you could say "The army made another tank, instead of a crapload of rifles. Clearly, infantry weaponry sucks!"

Or how about "I bought some pizza, instead of some hamburgers. Clearly, I must not like hamburgers!"

Do you see what I'm getting at? You're making a jump in logic that is, well, not logical. The situation is not that simple, and the connection may not be there. Maybe the projected profits of a new game outweigh the projected profits of more support for an old game. That does not, however, mean that the old game isn't still more profitable. It only means that it's not worth the extra support (or doesn't need it), and that those resources would be better spent in other ways.

Also, please stop double-posting. Do like I do, and open that quote button in another window, copy it, and then paste it in another quote reply.

pumpkin pie · Jan 06, 2010, 07:55 AM // 07:55

ArenaNet should put a donate button on the log in page and/or their website, I am sure lots of willing players will donate

First of all Guild Wars is a successful MMORPG/online game with no subscription fees, and do not need us to pay the subscription fees. Even up to a month ago, new players still come on here to ask for advise, or just to say "hi! I am new!"

4+years without a subscription fees and the game is still running with constant updates + holidays events + weekend events + balancing.

It is a successful MMORPG because even when they do not need our subscriptions fee, lots of players still willingly want to throw money at them.

So, the best way is put a donate button on their website and let the proceed go to charity.

WinterSnowblind · Jan 06, 2010, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

And once again you have failed to realize that GW1 has been around far longer than Aion has. Therefore, you have repeatedly failed to understand that when NCSoft decided to create a brand NEW game known as Aion, they could have used the resources for GW1 updates but have chosen not to.

So you are saying the more content update they provide for GW1 the more people would grow tired of the game? Then they should not provide any update, so people would stick around longer in GW1? Sure....

It's called product over saturation. In the same way I could ask why should Bethesda have made Fallout 3, when they could have expended those resources on creating Elder Scrolls V? By this same logic you could say Elder Scrolls IV was unsuccessful and they have no faith in a 5th game, so they've decided to focus on the Fallout series instead. After all, they've said there's no plans to even work on a 5th title at this stage. Why don't they at least continue releasing content for Oblivion? It must have been a failure.

Eye of the North was released as the final set of content for GW, so they could concentrate their efforts on GW2. I'm not sure how much clearer you need this to be. Your logic makes no sense and your evidence is non-existant.

isildorbiafra · Jan 06, 2010, 03:30 PM // 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

Unlike most fools who part with their money so easily I don't goto the movies and waste $10-$20 watching the crappy movies they make today (Avatar anyone?) I wait until they are .99 cents at my local video store or even smarter method wait until they come on the movie channels of cable and/or direct tv which I already pay for. Then I can copy them in the comfort of my home at no added extra cost.

And you will get exactly what you payed for; which is 1/10 the experience you would have gotten had you viewed it in full 3D on a movie theater screen!

On topic. I dont care to pay for play. That's why I play WG.
/ NOT Signed.

Astral_Nomad · Jan 06, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by here to troll

I know, I know, the point of guild wars is to have a subscription fee-less(<--is that correct, lol) based model. But think about it, the average price for a subscription fee is about $12-$15. Now, how many people go to the movies. At least where I live it is about 10 bucks for a ticket and i might buy popcorn. Thats around 1 and a half hours to 2 hours of entertainment. Maybe longer if you see 2012 which is around 2 and a half hours (i think).

The fact is, it is easy to "get your monies worth" and i would rather support anet through a subscription fee than micro transactions. Just my $0.02.

okay.. think about this: you say 12-15 a month.. you play for 3 months then 3 x 12 = 36, 3 x 15 is 45.. you just bought yourself a complete campaign in those few months. Im not going to pay over and over for a game i should have to pay for once. In a year youve paid 180 bux and bought the game 4 times over.

Another thing about the "free to play"/subscription games versus micro transactions. Most of them cripple the game.. sure you can play the game without ever paying a dime but all you are really is fodder for the paying players cause you are so restricted you never have any hope of making any real progress up the player ladder.

With GW you dont have to worry about the other guy having the upper hand due solely on the fact he can afford that fee the one month you cant. While all the things you can buy with micro transactions are nice to have they are not *required* to win the game as nothing in the GW store can significantly improve your skill as a player (eg getting a makeover isnt going to up your AL, it will just leave a prettier corpse). Anet doesnt punish/cripple you because you didnt buy anything more than the game and they dont withhold "premium" items that might actually allow you to progress. In the end, you still must earn your place on the ladder the old fashioned way.. by working for it.

In GW, all players are on a level playing field. Its not a 2-tiered system.

I buy my games, i dont rent them for exactly that reason. Just my 2 cents.